77. What is Relationship Property?

Today we’re back to chat about all things relationship property.

Relationship property can be a bit of a sticky subject, particularly if you are approaching being in a de facto relationship, looking at getting married or otherwise. 

To chat with us today is a special guest joining us to share his knowledge on the topic, as we're by no means an expert in this area. Today we're joined by Will Eddowes, General Manager at Agreeable, a Kiwi legal startup that helps couples get relationship property sorted online.

Specifically, we chatted about:

• What is relationship property and what that entails
• When is a ‘good’ time to get a prenup/relationship agreement?
• What is agreeable? And what services do they provide?

And plenty more!

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Any information we provide is general only and current at the time of writing.

Transcript

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How does the length of time and the defacto relationships like play an over like to getting a prenup? Good point. So most people should know that the earlier you do it, the better. So you can get one of these agreements as as early as you like. I mean, you could do it the night after the first date. You want it. It's pretty unlikely. Yeah. But, generally people will do it when the, when that three year period is coming up or when you're about to get married or, you know, get into a civil union. Yeah. so that's something that people should know about. They should know kind of the general dates and, know about the three year rule if you're not married, which I think is applying to more and more people these days. Right. Like, yeah, it's probably less common to get married these days, certainly less common to get married as quickly as maybe 30 years ago. Welcome to It's No Secret, a podcast for Kiwis who want their money. Questions answered. Ready. Set. Go. This podcast will answer the money questions you may or may not have on your mind. We'll talk to real Kiwis and share truths about our own financial lives, both the successes and the failures. Because the truth is there is no secret to achieving financial freedom. Hello and welcome to. It's no secret. I'm Christine, and today we're back to chat about all things relationship property. Today we have a special guest joining us to share his knowledge on the topic. As I am no, by no means an expert in this area, I'm joined by Will. It is General Manager at agreeable, a Kiwi legal startup that helps couples get relationship property sorted online. Hi. Well, thanks for joining us. Hi, Christine. Thanks for having me. No, I was really excited to get stuck. We've a little bit of free talking and, Yeah, I've got some really interesting questions lined up. Yeah. Very relevant all. And I as well for the listeners inside I shows cool. So relationship property can be a bit of a sticky subject, particularly if you're approaching being and in a de facto relationship, looking at getting married or otherwise, hopefully not getting divorced, but maybe that might be in the future. Hopefully not. But because on one hand you are hopefully in love and want to combine your hopes, dreams, etc. but on the other hand, you also want to be financially responsible because you do truly never know what could happen. so lots to get stuck into. But before we were open to the questions, you have shared a few stats which are quite interesting. That really set the scene on why this is important. So you shared that a report done by the Barn Foundation and the University of Otago in 2018 found that over half of those who discussed a prenup with their partner relied on non-binding verbal agreements. So, you know, you noted that this one was particularly important. Why is that? Or like, notable to talk about? Yeah, sure. So I think that, the main issue with this area of law, particularly for most people, is the cost barrier and the kind of daunting nature of, you know, we need apparently we need two lawyers, which I'll talk about the requirements for to get, you know, a binding agreement. You need two lawyers to get a binding agreement, one each. And you essentially need to go through this formal process that is actually quite yeah, it's a bit of an unknown for a lot of people. Hopefully after this podcast, when people are listening, they'll know a bit more. Yeah, but that's probably why a lot of people end up getting a just talking about it and not actually getting a binding agreement, not actually going through the steps to get, you know, what a lot of people know is a prenup agreement or contracting out agreement. And so, yeah, part of what I'd be keen to talk about today, and I think part of what I'm sure some people will learn is that, it's quite important if you are in that stage of life and if there might be some kind of assets that you don't necessarily want to share equally, with your partner if you know things that go sour. Yeah. that there is a way to formalize it and protect yourself. And as you say, be financially responsible. And it doesn't have to be as hard as it used to be. thanks to agreeable. But yeah. So we'll talk about that. yeah. But yeah. No. So that's pretty what I'd say is that that state is important because it shows that people talk about it like it's it's something that that plenty of people discuss with their partners. They know a little bit about it. Yeah, but they probably don't know it. Many people don't know enough to take that next step and actually protect themselves and be financially responsible. For sure. I feel like the I even just the term relationship property agreement, I've definitely thrown around and probably not fully understand what it entails. And I reckon that people have this idea of like, oh, I know it's something that I should do, but you know, the gap between talking about it and actually getting one is potentially quite big. So that leads me perfectly onto what is a relationship property agreement and what does that entail. And you mentioned contracting out agreements. Just say the same. Yeah. So there's a few different names which is a little bit I guess a bit of a source of frustration for, for some people. I mean, every law firm is entitled to call it what they want. but, you know, there is a, there is a way to define them, which I'll get into. But basically, I think the starting point is the act. So the piece of legislation that the government passed in 1976, the Property Relationships Act, which has a lot it does a lot of different things. But probably the main thing that it does for most Kiwis is say that if your relationship ends, if you are a serious relationship, and I'll get to what that is defined as. Yeah. if that ends, then both partners have by default an equal share in the relationship property, which is its own definition, which I'll also try to explain in so many definitions and things. sounds really nice, actually. Yeah. They don't have to be as confusing as maybe, you know, people who might think or some lawyers might make them. for some people, obviously there's so many different types of situations and, you know, by no means is this podcast a replacement for legal advice, but I think a lot of financial advice. Yeah, yeah, a lot of people, I like to say go in to get, a haircut and they end up with a full body wax because they basically get so much more. Yeah, so much more. do you mean kind of people go in expecting something and they come out with something so much people tell me on the phone they like, you know, we both knew what we wanted. We went into a law firm. She went into a law firm. I went into a law firm. She went into a law firm. And we just ended up with these massive emails, and we didn't know what any of it meant. And, yeah. So there's all sorts of definitions, which I'm, I'm sure we'll get to. But basically for some people that equal sharing law creates a fair outcome. And I would never have to really talk about a prenup beyond, probably a bit of a giggle. And, you know, one of them sees it in a magazine or hears it on this podcast, but they've built a life together. They've saved very similar amounts. They've contributed financially very similarly. Or one party is maybe earning more, but they're on the same page in terms of, you know, just life and, yeah, life in general, that they've done it all together. And that's, that's a healthy conversation to at least have. But it could be a very quick one. But then for some people, it's not a fair outcome to just have the law tell you that if you know, if the relationship does end, sadly, that you both have an equal share of everything, and for some people that might be because they've purchased a house beforehand, one, one partner purchase the house and they, you know, would really think that that's their property. I mean, it might be different if you've been married or in a, you know, civil union or you've just been living together for 20 years. but of course, if it's relatively early on in the relationship, some relationships do end earlier than you think. You might still think that that's kind of your asset. and I guess that's that's where those situations are, where, the equal sharing law doesn't necessarily give the best outcome for some Kiwis. So luckily there is a whole section or multiple sections in the act devoted to contracting out, which is the basic term for parties being able to make their own agreement. So that's a prenup if you're still together, also known as a contracting out agreement or a relationship property agreement, which is what we call it, agreeable. and then there's also a separation agreement, which is if you've already separated, but you'd still like to make those decisions afterwards. So you obviously need to be relatively amicable and on the same page, but basically there's two types Prenups post up so you're still together, but it's early on. and then separation agreements. So that's post separation. So that's kind of you've got another chance to divide everything and formalize it, which is usually, something that the bank has asked for or something that you both would like to make, kind of moving on a bit easier. Yeah. so, yeah, that those two agreements, which are all under the kind of umbrella of relationship property or contracting out agreements, a concession from the law, basically that says, okay, we should be able to have their own option. but the law then says the act then says that you have to each have a, you have to write it down, your agreement, your decisions. You then have to have a separate lawyer, each an independent lawyer for each person give you advice and tell you what you'd be entitled to under the equal sharing law, but you'd probably be entitled to and and tell you what your agreement is actually giving you, kind of what you're entitled to versus what you what you're getting. So that process on in the lawyer has to sign it with you as well. So that process is, you know, for some people that makes a lot of sense. For some people, they wish it was a lot easier. I think that and most lawyers would obviously tell you that it is important because some people don't actually know everything they need to know. And so that's the lawyer's role is to fill them in on that. That being said, and I'm sure we'll get to this later, but I think what agreeable is trying to do and, what what we were made for is to basically make that process a bit easier. Yeah. Because it doesn't serve kind of straightforward, amicable situations very well because people have to go to separate law firms. There's all this formality and all this kind of, like a lack of transparency between the two parties. They were amicable. Would suddenly they're in separate rooms and there's this gap between them. so getting divorced. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's like that can be for a prenup when you're together, but you're in separate offices, and. But that can stop making one of you wonder what the other person is being told. And you know. Yeah. So, yeah, we'll get onto agreeable, but it's just a way for people to do it together initially and do as much of the process together. but yeah, that's kind of setting the scene. Nice. On relationship. Probably. So why do you need a. So just to clarify, there's the contracting out agreement, relationship property agreement and prenup. They're all the same thing that's based. Yeah. Basically you've hit the nail on the head. So that's all usually talking about the one where you're together still. Yeah. often they're called prenups because it's usually before marriage. Yeah. Because, basically these these agreements apply to or this law applies to married couples, civil unions, defector relationships of over three years. So you have to have been living together for three years. so a, let's say prenup. I'm just going to use that for my own brain site that only I'm trying to. How does the length of time and the defacto relationships like play an over like to getting a prenup? Good point. So most people should know that the earlier you do it, the better. So you can get one of these agreements as as early as you like. I mean, you could do it the night after the first date. You want it. It's pretty unlikely. Yeah. But, generally people will do it when the, when that three year period is coming up or when you're about to get married or, you know, get into a civil union. Yeah. so that's something that people should know about. They should know kind of the general dates and, know about the three year rule if you're not married, which I think is applying to more and more people these days. Right. Like, yeah, it's probably less common to get married these days, certainly less common to get married as quickly as maybe 30 years ago. so people should know about that. But that being said, the, the three year obviously marriage and civil union, there's a kind of clear data, clear point. Yeah. But a defector relationship of three years or living together for three years, you can still get an agreement and have that conversation and do the whole process later on, including after being married or, you know, you can the lady you go while you're together, you can still have one. It's just a bit more complicated because the lawyers will probably be more expensive, more complicated because the lawyers will have more to untangle. Yeah, right. Because you have been together for so long that, I mean, if someone was trying to get a posting up, you know, like a prenup post up, and 20 years into a relationship, and they were trying to protect assets from their partner. Of course, both lawyers, especially the lawyer for the partner who's not getting as much property would say, well, are you just about to separate from them? Yes. Immediately. You just getting this prenup in anticipation of that. So that's an extreme example. But it kind of sets the scene for why the earlier the better, because things are clearer. and it's less like not baggage but more up to untangle, like you said. Yeah, exactly. So you know, Usually a, prenup is going to be, you know, one party has a house or maybe an inheritance, for example, which I think we'll get into as well. Yeah, that they'd like to protect so that it doesn't become relationship property. Yeah. And that's very obvious. Two years in, you know, or even five years and but like, it's very obvious, I should say that that's their asset. If that's the conversation that you're having with your partner. But as things go on, you start to think, well, things have been a little bit more intermingled, which can actually make those assets relationship property anyway. Yeah. And it's not as clear to us anymore where the kind of contribution starts, like, yes, you brought this asset in, but I've helped you renovated or I felt, yeah, you know, I've, I've been there, I've, you know, we've we've been part of this, we've use this asset together. Yeah. So it's it makes those conversations harder later. But that's probably why most people would say the earlier the better for a. Yeah a relationship property agreement. Do you. So just also to clarify as opposed not in a separation agreement. Same thing. They are different. So so yeah a posting up is in the kind of colloquial sense A is a prenup, but it's after marriage. Yeah. So it's you're already married. It doesn't really, you almost don't need that distinction. It's it's more just that, you know, if it's two post the waiting. If it's too much down the track, then it it does kind of define a, a more difficult agreement, a more difficult process. But yeah. Yeah. Prenups and post that's a similar basically the same same document but just slightly different contexts. yeah. Yeah. And then separation agreement is again does the same thing, but is for parties that have already separated and they kind of looking back and making that decision, you know, in order to move forward with a bit more clarity. So yeah. Okay. Interesting. now, I mean, there's a range of like relationship types, for lack of a better term IRA, partner, sibling, parent, friend, auntie, family, all that kind of stuff. and we're going to talk about the like everything except partner shortly because I want to use myself as a veteran myself. So see how it goes. Sorry. In advance of, I guess, the scenario and the kind of situation that I personally and as Ali and I have been together for almost five years now, so we I would pass the de facto line. We don't have a relationship property agreement and we obviously are not married. So, I think you've kind of answer some of these questions, but when I look at what we've brought to this relationship, Ali has brought more in terms of S's and I have less so knowing like, let's say, if I don't have, get a prenup, am I currently entitle and then wait, what a separate would I be entitled to half of what we have together? The question. So there's no such. Obviously none of this is like advice. Yeah. we're clear on that. And I wouldn't want to be too specific. And I think I should start by saying a lot of these questions or a lot of the answers to these questions, answered with probably or more than likely even a lawyer giving advice. Their client can't necessarily talk in absolutes because it's all opinion based on the rules and how the how the rules in the law match your situation. The only way to get kind of formal definition is to go all the way to family court to really understand. Yeah, exactly. So this whole process of getting an agreement and talking to lawyers is to, yeah, avoid going to court. But that being said, I think I can answer relatively confidently to at least give you an indication. and yeah, essentially, you would be very likely if you've been living together for over three years, regardless of whether you're married. you would be entitled to half of the relationship property. And it's good that we got to this point, because I realize I haven't even defined what relationship property usually is for people. So that's kind of another source of confusion. so what is relationship property usually? I mean, it's almost always, in fact, by default it is the family home. So wherever you live, wherever your primary residence is, presuming you know, one party or both of you own it, and that doesn't matter who bought it, if somebody if one of you bought it, you know, three years before you even met, and then brought that into the relationship, it becomes relationship property. So the family home is kind of the big one. That's what most people have in their agreements, you know, figuring out what they want to do with that. Then there's obviously the furniture, appliances. So those are the family chattels. So those are almost always, you know, by definition relationship property. they are they might be exceptions, but there might be exceptions to a lot of these different rules. But in general, the family home, family chattels, income. So the bank accounts that you both use as well as, yeah, vehicles and any other assets that are for the common benefit of the relationship. and basically the the other element that's probably surprising to people is it's also anything that is intermingled with what with relationship property assets. So if if you use your income on, let's say, a separate property that you both verbally say is, you know, all a separate property, you will separate property. You both verbally say it's your super property, but you're using your income to, you know, renovate it or to contribute to it. Obviously, you're using your income to pay, property manager pay fees and things like that. Yeah. Then that gradually becomes more intermingled with relationship property, and it's almost certainly going to be going to end up being at risk of being relationship property. it's also the case with inheritances and gifts. So if you're if you get an inheritance of, say, $100,000 from a great grandmother or something. Yeah. And if you keep that completely separate in your name and you don't touch it, you don't do anything with it, you just, you know, or you you might do something with it, but it all stays away from the relationship. That's very hard to do. So I almost shouldn't even talk about that. you'd have to be so disciplined in particular. Yeah. Most people. Right. We'll use it. Inheritance on renovation? Yeah. Renovations or a deposit for a new house or something. Yeah. So that's another thing. A lot of people will contract out. They'll say, look, I got this$100,000 inheritance or they may even maybe early in the relationship and they haven't had it yet, but they know they're going to get inheritance. they'll say, look, I think we need to get a prenup agreement so that I can protect that as my separate property so we can use it to help each other while we together. But if things go sour, if, you know, the unfortunate happens in the relationship means I can protect that. And I can, you know, take that inheritance from my lovely great grandmother back out of the house proceeds or something. So, yeah, basically relationship property is is the family home, family chattels, vehicles, both partners income and the money, the bank accounts that they use just for day to day life. Because the law presumes that every you know that your day to day life is for the benefit of both of you. Yeah. And then any assets that that basically are intermingled with those things. So it, yeah, it can be a lot wider than people think, a lot broader. And that's probably a shock for some people. Like if they if they do end up going through the process and they didn't know these things, they start to go, oh, well, I thought that gift was obviously mine. Or I thought the, you know, the house that I bought before the relationship was, was just going to be mine. But the law, that's what I mean at the start of it had the equal sharing law doesn't always give fair outcomes to people. It doesn't always give kind of financially prudent results to people with if they do end up kind of, you know, moving into their own life. so that's why the option to contract out and protect things while it's a tough conversation, is usually a really good conversation to have. Yeah, it's funny, as you said, as you explain like that, as I play, I sit here and play through my own situation. But then I think about all the people that I know in like family situations and stuff where I'm like, yep, you're on de facto. You need to get this and this is going to happen here. Or what if this happens? And it's like, I mean, I think it affects or touches everyone in some way, regardless of whether you're in a relationship with someone or you are in relationship with someone in your life, whether that's a family member or a partner or whatever. So it's very relevant. Yeah. love that. So that's basically I know. Yeah. relationship probably a great one. But you know, think about it. It's not it's certainly not my place and even agree. But we don't necessarily go to help everybody to get one. But we would tell everyone to have that conversation. If you're in that kind of stage of life, it's something that probably catches people off guard. And the downsides, you know, dismissing disputes claims by a, by an ex partner. Yeah. Potential kind of trips, the family court things that if you asked that many people in family court now going through those things if you ask them five years ago, did you think you'd be here almost everybody would say, of course not. You're just a normal couple. But yeah, sadly, without trying to scaremongering or anything like, yeah, that is what this whole system is designed to avoid. because that system doesn't help. Obviously couples. Yeah, it doesn't help New Zealand and our justice system, it fills it up with situations that could have been dealt with earlier by just many, maybe a couple that was a bit more prepared or new. But had a bit more information. And so, yeah, definitely. so I think, you know, when I think about Elena, I specifically I'm more than happy to have that conversation. If anything, I'm probably more a bit more forceful than maybe he is. but I don't think that that's the case for every the everyday person, because it is quite a tough conversation to have. And you kind of touched on this earlier about, you know, maybe you do it after your first date. If you're really that like a club that's really wide open. Yeah, yeah. It was just to kind of, yeah. Scream. Yeah. The possibility. But you know. Totally. But like, I mean do you, you must speak to couples or people all the time that have had those conversations. Like, can you give any insight as to how someone would go about approaching that topic with someone in their life? Yeah, it is a touchy subject. It's it's, it's almost for some people, it's almost more of a kind of, I don't know, a, a mentality thing. It's a, yeah, almost a psychological thing. So it does depend on kind of where, where you sit in the relationship. And I would never kind of, intend to or I would never say that everybody should have these conversations. Some people, you know, for whatever reason, just it might it might not be an option. My parents went through, separation. That was, divorce. It lasted 12 years and they were in and out of court and all that kind of stuff. I can't even imagine the amount of money that was spent arguing, let alone the, like, mental strain and the impact on the kids and all that fun stuff. Right? Like, and so I think for me personally, that has inadvertently freaked me out because I'm like, I have to be protected. And I also want the other person to be protected. But then it scares me to be like, my sister needs to be protected and she needs to do that. And, you know, like because the worst case scenario is pretty dire. And like, I think that in I think that everyone knows someone that has had a breakdown in a relationship and it has potentially not gone well financially, and then you're worse off because that could be the difference between a secure retirement or not. Right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, financial security for but if you buy yourself I mean yeah. Yeah. No those are great. Yeah. So that's about like I said. No no no that was that was really good. I think that that's the reality of it. Right. It makes me feel better about saying that stuff because I know yeah, I know that some of the lawyers would go on these things and be like, oh, it doesn't mean talking about prenup. Doesn't mean is predicting doom or anything, but it's like a kind of it's not predicting you, but it's preparing for it. Yeah. in all honesty, I think it's about understanding what the worst possible outcome is. and that's a little bit daunting and maybe something people don't want to think about, but it is. We were talking about this earlier. It is a little bit like insurance. Like you, you have insurance not because you think something's going to go wrong necessarily, but just because if it does, you want to be protected. Yeah. And we all know somebody who, you know, everybody knows someone who's had a breakdown in a relationship. sometimes that ends up being a financial thing, you know, claims and kind of spats and things like that, probably from couples that never had those conversations early on. Yeah. and so I think having that transparency and honesty with each other, you know, again, I can't speak for everybody, but I don't think it's a bad thing to say that most people that everybody should think about, whether that's a good conversation to have. And for most people, it probably is. Yeah. and it's yeah, it is a tough conversation, but it's one of those things. It's just one of those kind of life admin things that it's like, you know, it's not necessarily nice to have, but in some ways it could be just to be open with each other. Yeah. And yeah, I think like I said earlier, at the very start, for some people that built a life together, that started with kind of, you know, just their incomes or something, they've they bought a house together, they've done everything together. And that may be a lot faster and easier conversation. But when it does seem to one part or to one partner that this, that this conversation could be important and it may be getting an agreement and getting something legally binding, could be important. Then I think if either of if either partner or if the other partner was a bit unsure about why we would talk about this, it's just about knowing that there are a lot of people who have had these, unfortunately had breakdowns and the relationship and, situations go horribly awry, when maybe a little bit more of a kind of yeah, a little bit more of a discussion while things were good. might have actually avoided that. No, not necessarily in all cases, because sometimes things just changed far too much. But yeah. so a little bit tangent, but on this note, just to counter that, like, why do we need a prenup thing. Yeah. So I was watching this real the other day and I was talking about, this lady was like, I did not purposely did not get a prenup, and I didn't want to because basically the agreement was that I was going to be the stay at home caregiver. And like, mom, basically, and my partner was going to be the breadwinner. And what if, you know, like he decides to leave me? He's built up this career over time and he's like, got this huge ability to earn. And then 20 years later, I'm what am I left with in other than like, obviously a beautiful family and like, you know that but then you know so like if you said before potentially like in my situation I would get half of what all he has. Have you ever heard any sort situations of people coming in with that mindset. And or do you see validity in that? Because I know that there is a big discussion about, you know, like the roles that people play in the family and as, providers and all that kind of stuff. And it's like the career element, that ability to earn thoughts. Yeah. So I certainly believe in that. And that's you know, I think we all maybe feel like the politicians and government. Yeah. Doing a not a bad job sometimes, but they, you know, we're like, well, what are they doing in there. Luckily in 1976, they, they kind of thought about that stuff already. So that whole point of equal sharing or really or a big part of it is to recognize non-financial contributions. So it's to say that just because one partner didn't earn as much money during the relationship, they may have been, you know, doing more parenting, or they may have been more responsible for, thinking about kind of broader things in their family rather than just, you know, contributing and earning money for the relationship. So that is certainly something that feeds into why we have an equal sharing law. And I would say that if if that is a relevant thing to, you know, both of you, or at least to one of you and something that you hold quite dear, then you have every right to not sign an agreement and to not even think about getting one, just like the person on your rails. So yeah, it's. Yeah, that that means basically no one can force you to sign a prenup, and that's probably something else that's important. Like here we are talking about all these the basics of the law and kind of what you should think about when you're getting one. I think that you bring up an interesting point that we should definitely mention, which is that nobody can force you to sign on. It's it's all about having both parties agreement and consent. And if anybody has been kind of, you know, coerced into signing one, then that agreement is probably going to be, set aside, will have a big risk of being set aside in the future. So, yeah, essentially it's you don't have to have an agreement. that obviously might cause some friction for people if one partner does and one doesn't. Yeah. but no one can force you into getting one and, that may be a source for some kind of contention. Yeah. Contention. That just is a fact of our society, that there will be people who who just decide, I'm not going to get one. And if the relationship does end and they're going to have to sort that out and those conversations might change, old things might change. But, yeah, can the law does protect those people. by that's what the equal sharing Louis for. So for anyone out there that's like, oh I'm learning about this equal sharing law. And it sounds dreadful. It sounds like it makes no sense. Yeah. Well, it makes sense for people who, you know, don't have anyone to necessarily defend themselves when they say that I didn't earn as much money, but I, I, I made my contribution to the relationship in other ways. So those people are protected, which is, I think a nice feature of the law. You could write that into a contract there, right? Surely. Right. And what in terms of, you know, let's say you both agree that you want to get a prenup because let's say let's scenario. Yeah. in the example of me, and only if we were to decide that we were going to have kids and the next year or whatever, and only has brought in more money than I have, but then I'm going to be the person to stay at home. We could be on the same page that we want to get a prenup. like at that point or now let's say, no, but he could have his initial assets, like protected. But we could write into that contract that this is the non-financial contribution that I would be making. And therefore, you know, I would be protected. Or is that underlying does the act already protect that? Yeah, the act already protects that. Yeah. so basically if a, if that scenario was was occurring and you wanted those things to be, I guess, acknowledge acknowledged, they already are by the law. So you would basically be able to say if that was important to you in that situation, you'd be able to say, well, I don't ever have to get an agreement because the default of the law is that my, my, my contribution is seen as equal. And as part of that, if the relationship ended, I'd, I'd be equally entitled to the relationship. Probably. some people might customize a prenup agreement to basically say that, look, this is how things stand now. So this is this is a separate entity has separate asset. But we're going to review it every couple of years or we're going to review it once we have children or you know, some people I've seen some people have kind of conditional like timeframe based things. So after X number of years or something, then the the other partner share in the property will increase, even though they didn't contribute initially to it. So it's these are very flexible agreements. But which is great. But they obviously have to be fair, reasonable and agreed by both parties. And obviously they need to have the legal advice from a lawyer and go through that process so that that process of having the lawyers may, may change some things. But if it's if it's something that's important to both of you and you can agree on it and conversation, then it probably, you know, if it's going to move you away from the default equal sharing law, even a little bit, that's when you might consider getting, you know, contracting out and getting an agreement. Yeah. But if if your decision, if your preference or your agreement between both parties is to basically have an equal share anyway, even though one of you hasn't contributed as much financially, then the law protects you, so you don't actually need an agreement. Although, you know, if things went sour and you did end up kind of having a dispute over that, that's that's another story. But, yeah. Okay. I hope that kind of answer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nice. Great. I'm like banking, all of us. So yeah, it's Okay. So moving on to other types of relationships. We've kind of trickled, parts of it throughout the conversation, but I wanted to start with family. now, I don't know about you, but we are writing more and more stories about, you know, family helping other family members into property ownership specifically, or, you know, perhaps us and the likes of inheritance or something like, we found some interesting stats around this, consumer in the 2022 research found that 14% of all families have supported their kids financially to buy a property and assisted them with an average contribution, being $108,000, which equates to roughly 208,000 parents. So that to me is that's obviously something that's happening. The naturally some legal stuff around this. so curious to understand what the different options for parents and could you explain some of the pros and cons of each AIA gifting loan guarantee touring. Yes, absolutely. So I'll probably start with Garen touring. So yeah. basically it's, you know, speaking generally without getting too specific. most people, if they use a if they have a guarantor, it would be the parents, maybe even the grandparents being a guarantor over their, I guess their, their mortgage and the responsibility to the bank and that I'm not sure if that was more common in the past, or not. I don't have kind of the data on that. But what I do know is that most people, most lawyers, even the banks themselves, do not prefer that option. and certainly the kind of the, the, the kids and the parents or grandparents shouldn't either. Again, this isn't legal advice, but just the general. It just people should be very aware that, a guarantor can end up being liable having their home be liable. So, so if your parents, for example, with the guarantors for your mortgage, their home may become security over the you know, for that the bank would necessarily ask for and take if you weren't able to if the kids weren't able to, I guess, pay the mortgage, pay the mortgage, you know, so that's something that people should probably steer away from. Again, there might be some technicalities that make it make sense for some people, but that's the general things I hear from lawyers that, that is a is kind of the consensus view and guarantors. If you do want to, you know, tap into the bank of mum and dad, which as you say, is is increasingly, you know, necessary for people and it's more common. Probably getting a deed of debt is the best the deed of acknowledgment of debt. We just call it a deed of dated, agreeable to take, you know, to save one big word acknowledgment. But date of acknowledgment of debt, which basically is a very simple document, in most cases very simple. Some people may, you know, need or choose to complicate it, but all that document says is that the parents don't, you know, have, loaned the child$50,000 towards a deposit and it will state the terms in which that has to be repaid. Most ones that we see would be people who, the kids will repay it once the house is sold. So it's kind of this, you know, undefined future. You know, this future date, but conditional on the on the house being sold. And in a lot of cases, that's quite helpful where the child who's who's getting loan to has a partner. And basically the parents want to protect that deposit so that, yeah, it does become a relationship property thing in those situations. Because if the partner, you know, has if the partner is entitled to half of the home as well, because it's if we assume that it's a family home and relationship property, then if in the future the relationship ends, that $50,000, you know, debt to the parents is actually absorbed into the home. And so the, the partner, the child's partner has a half claim of, of that basically that money disappears from the family. Whereas if you have a date of debt which states that the parents actually loaned that and that they are entitled to receive it back upon the sale of the home, then that is money is inherently protected, as the parents did. if it's a gift, a gift is probably a little bit easier, a deed of gift. So that's basically just the parents are giving $50,000 to the to their child for a, for a home. That's important to get in a deed as well, just really to show the bank that it is a gift that, it might help the child to get, approval for finance because the bank says, oh, well, there's this kind of no obligation $50,000 gift. So the child is going to be easier. It's going to be easier for them to meet the requirements of the mortgage. Yeah. but then if it's a, if it's a gift that becomes, a deed of gift that becomes a lot harder to protect from a relationship, property situation. even if you have a date of gift, it's it can be seen that that gift has been absorbed into the relationship anyway. So we would probably say to most people, if they are getting gifted, you know, $50,000 from the parents toward the house, and if they're in a relationship and they'd like to protect that, then that's when you probably get a prenup that that mentions the date of gift that mentions the gifting and that partner can or the child can protect that $50,000 as their separate asset. you know, again, like for the stuff we've spoken about, just in case of the kind of worst case scenario. so that's probably some of the things people can think about. and the legal requirements are pretty minimal. It's basically the legal requirements are minimal. So you can actually get a deed of gift or date of debt just by having a witness on a witness sign with each partner of each party, or witness each. You don't need legal advice, but it's highly recommended. I know some lawyers actually just wouldn't brought up a date for you without also giving you the advice. so that certainly recommended. But it's not a necessity. Like like it is for relationship property agreements where you literally do need a lawyer each for the for the agreement to mean anything. but a deed, a deed is kind of quite simple, but you're saying so that would I guess also like these kind of gift loan guarantor scenario. Also like thinking, blowing it out to other types of relationships. The idea of a date of gift, a date of acknowledging the date of acknowledgment of debt date. Yeah, yeah yeah. We we say date of gift. Date of the date of it. Yeah. Like it would be the same thing if you, let's say going. Oh I don't know, that would apply an on a house list with friends like oh no. So that's a completely different. That's again, there might be certain elements. I don't know if there are many people out there getting gifts from friends, but I think in a different way. And I realize as I say that. Yeah, in a different way, though, a property sharing agreement is probably more suitable for that kind of situation. So we see a few of those, pop up where people are basically, again, it's it's another way to get to kind of defeat this issue of house affordability. Right. To. Yeah, go in with mates going with, your siblings. I know some of my friends have done it or in the process of doing it and getting a property sharing agreement in place is, again, this isn't a relationship property agreement. So it's not it doesn't have those requirements, but it does protect all the all the parties by basically saying who who, contributed what to the deposit. How are we going to deal with mortgage repayments. You know, is it going to be an equal share. Sometimes people go 50, 25, 25 or something. What will happen if we sell or if like one party wants to sell to the other parties want a right of first refusal, which is basically that they get the chance to buy the share first. say one person did want to sell, what then trigger everyone else to have to sell if they weren't willing to then buy if they weren't able to. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. So that's sorry. That's a, it's that if, if, if the rest of the, the team weren't able to cover those costs then that will have to sell. And then the agreement might put some kind of agreements, some kind of agreed terms in place around how that would happen, how they'd decide. so a property sharing agreement is a relatively simple document. in some cases it can be like if it's equal shares and if they all just kind of want the standard clauses. So we sell them at agreeable. And people can basically just fill out the online questionnaire on our app and it generates one for you. And then our team would help you. some people obviously can go and have lawyers do it. which might be good. Certainly good. If you, if it's relatively complicated and you don't know how to start. But if you know, a little bit, you know, we have a guide online and things like that, then you can at least get started with it and then get legal advice afterwards if you choose. Again, legal advice isn't a requirement on those, but isn't it isn't a statutory requirement. But most people, right, when they're buying a house will have lawyers involved for conveyancing. So you should probably wrap your property sharing agreement into that. Yeah. Whatever. Your lawyer's helping with you in the home transaction, you should also probably get a little bit advice over the property sharing agreement. Sometimes it's good for, you know, everybody to have their own lawyer in that situation. But if it's if it's just a few friends kind of having a relatively simple, co-ownership agreement, then maybe one lawyer can just help all of you, you know, figure out what you, what you're doing. But it's. Yeah. So those are those agreements are better options for, for that co-ownership. Yeah. Siblings. you know friends, flatmates. It's. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Okay. going back a little bit to the relationship property agreement, I noticed that you mentioned family home a lot. Yes. Does that differ to like, an investment property? Yes it does. Yeah. So basically a family the family home is we live primary residence. That's usually easy for most people to define. I know agreeable. We've seen people with yachts as family homes or we've seen people who have they've rented the whole time. So there isn't a family home, but they might they might be getting an agreement because there are other assets or other intentions that they're trying to, trying to reflect. But if you have an investment property almost by rule, that will be considered for the benefit of the relationship. So that would immediately become, relationship property. It's it's at a very high, you know, high likelihood. I would almost say guaranteed. I mean, it's very hard for one partner in a, you know, committed, healthy relationship to, like, have an investment property that the other person doesn't at least benefit from in some way from, you know, if, if that partner, the partner with the investment property is getting income from the invest in property, like being paid rent and using that rent at all to benefit the relationship, then that investment property becomes more and more likely to be relationship property. So there are obviously exceptions and outliers, and people can be very particular about how they protect assets in other ways. But I would say an investment property is, is a if there's an investment property that one of you purchased before or purchased with your own money during the relationship, that might be when the conversation of a prenup starts to basically say that, you know, the partner that purchased that would like to retain that, because obviously while you're together, you can still benefit from that investment property. It's just the prenup in the agreement is just saying if the relationship ends, this is what will happen to the property. But yeah, but retaining it as your separate property during the relationship through a prenup doesn't mean that you're refraining the other party from coming to the beach on holiday or from, you know, or even from having the rent from an investment property or Airbnb income or something. Yeah. Help, help you guys pay your family home off. It just means that you're protecting it in case of the worst scenario, worst possible scenario. So yeah. So how does having an individual well come. And two things, you know, and the example let's say of having kids, I obviously know that that's not what the conversation necessarily is about today with regarding kids, but let's say only and I have individuals and then we join forces, you know, in a relationship agreement. Surely those and I'm like, I want any of any of my assets to go to potential future kids. What needs to happen there? Yeah, sure. So essentially for me, the main thing is one party can't use a will to, defeat a relationship property claim, because obviously if there's a prenup, then, you've you've made that together. But we would say to most people that, yeah, you should update a will to reflect your prenup. and certainly if you separate and you have wills, or if you don't have a will, you should get a will update your will to reflect that, reflect the new decisions you've made around your assets basically that so that the there's a much lower risk of dispute between the surviving partner and the estate of the deceased partner. It's probably something I shouldn't touch on in too much detail because there are a state estate laws that are not really my specialty. Yeah. so if that's a consideration for people, that's certainly something, you know, if people are in that situation, go seek legal advice, like talk to a lawyer, in your area. That's something to to deal with, probably in person, because it's quite, you know, technically. Yeah. And yeah, kind of heightened and, you know, someone's deceased. I mean, it's yeah, it's a big deal. But we would just generally say to people that, yeah, the surviving party can often they generally get a choice between what they're entitled to under the laws of relationship property and what is in the will or the intestacy laws, from, from the other partner. And those things can be in, kind of in tension if, if things haven't been aligned. So in that case, all that can do is just lead to kind of arguments between the kids who were previous kids of of one partner and of the deceased partner and then the surviving partner. So yeah, I would keep it simple and just say, people should realize that you should update your wills alongside having these conversations around relationship property. Okay. So we've talked we've talked a lot about different agreements. How much do each of these costs like what could I typically expect to pay if I was to come to agreeable and then want to. And then only as well. Yeah. Good question. So we agreeable generally tries to make it and we really do for most people a lot more cost effective. purely by helping you together. and having lawyers who collaborate with each other. It's fully online. So there's just a lot of steps in the traditional process of taken out or at least reduced. I would say let's start with the kind of traditional cost. So a lot of people using in-person lawyers will end up paying upwards of $5,000 as a couple. for even quite a simple agreement. that just includes a lot of time for the two lawyers who often don't know each other, to correspond and communicate, obviously, you've got to draft it. So if you get it with an in-person lawyer, they'll usually sit with you, you'll have an appointment and they'll, you'll they'll draft it up with you, and then you'll have to take it to the other lawyer, your partner's lawyer, and if they don't like it very much or if they have a different view, then that starts this whole process of back and forth. The lawyers saying, look, I know this is starting to seem ridiculous, but we've got to protect you. We've got to. So that doesn't speak to every family lawyer in the country, but that's just a part of the kind of the old model of the traditional model. so what agreeable does is basically you both come through us together, you start by drafting it on the app. So it takes a it has a little DIY element in that we kind of we best serve people who've done a little bit of research. You'll obviously get legal advice later in the process, but just to draft it and just to kind of get something on paper, in a, in a strong template, you can draft it with our app, which creates a fits your answers into a template designed by our lawyer panel. We have about 15 excellent lawyers around the country. And so that costs $450 with us to initially draft it and then have any help from, our team to basically we've got an operations team that helps people. You know, if the if people aren't sure what a clause means or they're not sure, you know, if they're a little bit concerned that something kind of reads funny will help clarify things for them without giving them legal advice at that stage, without having them pay for legal advice. but usually the people that have found us a, you know, it's quite a straightforward situation. So they kind of smoothly through the process. Then once everything's drafted and finalized, you need to have the agreement certified, which is where you have a lawyer each give advice. You know, one partner, his lawyer, a lawyer, a one point his lawyer be. And that process with us usually costs about two to 2500 dollars in total. So for that for both the couple. So we give fixed quotes to basically just, you know, have a little bit more transparency. set expectations I guess, and protections. It's hard to give fixed quotes in the law because people always think their situations are easy. So they expect a kind of minimal cost. But what agreeable tries to do is handle a lot of that upfront. Help people initially let people kind of drive the process themselves, and then give the lawyers a lot of context, give them an agreement already drafted so that it minimizes the role that the lawyers have to take, because the big expense for these agreements is obviously that the time with your lawyer, like it's a few hundred dollars an hour for any lawyer in the country. And, you know, that's important. Lawyers are very important. But there are certainly kind of features of the old way of getting these agreements, which is still the normal way, you know, sadly to say. But agreeable is trying to change that. of kind of having this gulf between the two, the lawyers and the two partners. we think people can save a lot of time and money kind of just doing it together. Yeah. Cool. So you so all and I come to you, we fill out this form that's $450. The information that you're taking at that point. As what? So that's you. You and only would have had that conversation around, you know, we've got all these guides on our website and articles. So you've read those. You might get in touch with us to make sure you know and say, hey, agreeable team, we're about to, buy an agreement. We just want to make sure we've got everything we need to fill out the questionnaire and, you know, generate the first document. So you'll be bringing, you know, what the address of the home is, what you're doing with the home. If there's an investment property or inheritance, any of the assets that you've figured out that you'd like to include in the agreement, so that's yours are always it's you bring that all to the question it shares. It can be bank accounts. you know, people, if it's a prenup, people might state that their incomes would like to, you know, remain separate in the event of their they should be doing, bank accounts. Kiwisavers. Yeah. So you basically bring the list of assets that will go in the agreement. and as I said, we have a few, kind of touch points on the website to and a guide to list those out for you and try to make it clear. Yeah, if people are just absolutely not sure. I mean, obviously, the option of going to lawyers straight away is always going to be there. We just try to be an option for people. We're like, you've done a little bit of legwork yourself. You've done a bit of research. We think that is possible for people. Some lawyers out there probably say it's not that people should just be with a lawyer straight away, but we help a lot of people who know a lot about what, how how little works for them and their situation. And they're kind of ready to go. And so that's what people do with us. They bring everything. We refine it, touch it up, we answer questions and then pass them on to lawyers at kind of a pretty low fixed fee. Yeah. To have the advice and everything. So at the advice stage when they're with their lawyer H some things may change slightly if they change a lot. We obviously agree, but we have kind of protections for the lawyers so that they're not giving a fixed quote for a case that blows up. Yeah, yeah. But we generally give the lawyers enough context so they can commit to a, a pretty low fixed fee because they know both parties have been spoken to and worked with our team on the initial agreement. So yeah. Yes. So that was my next question as a you to how do you take that information as like agreeable and then say okay, the fixed fee is this, is that a standardized fixed fee or it like, like it would change per case. It changes per case. Yeah. We have kind of broad ranges. Yeah. We can't commit to anything. We would love to just say there's kind of one fee for everyone, but we have to protect the lawyers by letting them say what they'd be happy to work on it for. So we combine the two lawyers quotes, add a fee for our services, and then present that to to the customer so the couple can pay together. They can divide it how they choose. But the quote is for both of them. So we just find that makes things a lot easier then the old way or the traditional way where you get a bill at the end, a mystery bill, which is, from an hourly rate, which could be like, you know, without throwing any family lawyers under the bus. Some of the things I hear on the phone from people who have found us because they're either a past situation, maybe that a previous separation or a prenup they did earlier in their life was just way more expensive and far longer than it had to be. So, that's what we try to stop for most people. But some people do need a long process. If it's, you know, if you have trusts and if you have businesses, multiple businesses. Yeah. Then there might be a little bit more particular attention that a lawyer needs to face. But even then, if those come through the agreeable system, we flag all that for the lawyers so they can quote accordingly. and so even then, we're able to usually give a fixed kind of transparent quote and let people let people know what it's going to cost. But I should say that some people do find, even cheaper options, like they find a kind of local lawyer who's willing to do it for maybe 680 or something, or $1,000 in total. And we would just say, steer clear of those or be careful of those, because that just sounds like the agreement's getting pushed through with kind of minimum minimal advice. And I think even way it agreeable, get a little bit of stick from some fancy lawyers for being too fast for kind of, you know, in formalizing the process. But we still have a minimum cost to our service. We still make sure that the lawyers are all accountable to make sure the agreements are fair. So, you know, we're we're not necessarily the cheapest you ever see, but if there's anything in the world to not scrimp on or not, not kind of, you know, be too tight on, tight on. It's a good word. It's probably legal advice. Yeah. But the other way is also the case. If there's anything where you can waste your money, it's can be legal advice as well. So yeah. So on that because let's say I, I mean it's kind of like the agency model really of a traditional law firm. Let's say that where you have your directors or, you know, your real super senior and they charge at a high rate and you've got your kind of interns or lower junior staff. How how do I know when I come to agreeable that I'm not going to get the intern? Like, do you have a bar where you're like, okay, senior to enter intermediate to senior to director? Like this is the level of advice in terms of seniority or experience that you can get through us. It's a good question. We we basically let the firms decide that. But I know they wouldn't. I mean, I know who that is. On they're not putting kind of interns on or you know, not that there's anything wrong with that, you know, you know, interns in the future in many cases. But yeah. yeah, the our panel is full of at least solicited. And so people who, you know, call completely qualified to handle these, they do lots of them and they normal work. But then agreeable is kind of another way that they get clients from anywhere in New Zealand because our services online and, yeah. So, you know, if a, if a lawyer on our panel says yes to, to helping a couple in they're a partner or maybe a kind of senior solicitor, then it might be a couple hundred dollars more. Yeah. but we basically just don't differentiate between the lawyers because we. Yeah, with all of our lawyers in our panel, experienced and, you know, experts and necessary and they've done hundreds of them before. So. Yeah. And then so I liken this also to the financial advice where you can get a pay for a fixed fee or, fee for service, where you get a financial plan or some advisors charge or most advisors charge an underlying management fee on the, on your total, portfolio balance. Okay. With so balance or whatever you're getting advice on. and oftentimes finding it's like a relationship set right where you in the same way it is for like a psychologist or, you know, those kinds of things where you are like, okay, I want someone that I can see in person in Oakland versus online if they both and donate and or whatever, how do you match, like me, with someone that like that, or is it a little bit more not transactional, but like it's you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, we we have a few lawyers who tell us the kind of work they prefer to do. So, it's a lot easier for us to manage from that side because we have great relationships with the lawyers. Yeah. But in terms of matching specifically, I mean, we're fully online, so we don't if somebody requested in person we could do that if, if one of our lawyers was in their town or city. Yeah. But, in most cases people have found us because they love the online element. They love that they can do it from home. It's a piece of life, Edmond. They don't have to drive into town for and find a car park. And you know, I'd say something I should add, as the kind of traditional way generally takes several months, at least for even very simple situations where where's agreeable takes a couple weeks, because we kind of organize the lawyers for you. The lawyers are ready to go. They can fit it in because it's online. They can fit video meetings in and calls in with you between other kind of in-person things. So there's a lot of time frame benefits for the agreeable process. Yeah. But in order to get those, we kind of don't spend too much time perfectly matching people. But what we what we know is that all of the lawyers are great and they all, you know, we don't put any old person on our panel, any old lawyer. We make sure that they've done a few files that they, you know, we talk to them, we bring them on, we have a semi-formal relationship with them. They don't work for us. But yeah, that's, So you can be pretty, you know, you can be assured that you're getting a good lawyer. Yeah. yeah. I think the reason I ask, and I'm obviously selfishly projecting, I think it's natural to have a bias. But, when I think of a legal agreement I like, I personally want to know that I have someone that has my best interests at heart and but also can understand the challenges that I might face that are unique to me versus, let's say, my partner. And not to be gender based, but inherently, like there are certain general gender roles that tend to, you know, take place in relationships and in life, really. And so coming back to, you know, being a homemaker and stuff, I want to make sure and also, you know, as the person that can give birth to the child, I need to take a career break. Right. And how does that impact me financially in this, like, legal agreement? Well, certain people understand that. I think that's the the sector of just to give a bit of context as to why I'm asking these questions to know, like, how do I know that I'm going to get matched with someone that is like on the same page? You know what I mean? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, obviously the the fact that all the lawyers in our panel, I can't speak for why the was, but they've all done so many different files help so many different people that they would have helped people in all those situations. Kind of both sides all but you know walks of life. Oh sorry I was everything. Yeah. And so I would say that if that was important to you, if you were using us, you could request that you could say, look, this is important to me. Yeah. if it's not or if you didn't even know to ask, then I suppose you just trust that, you know, we're providing you with a good lawyer, but it's also something that I'm sure some people do choose the in-person way because they kind of, you know, they might have to bounce around a few lawyers before they they find one who's a great fit for them. Yeah. yeah, it it really depends on kind of your needs. And in terms of what you said about with having your interests in mind, I would say that's a big part of the agreeable model. Just having lawyers who are kind of cost conscious and they don't want to initiate conflict. Yeah, they want to work with the other lawyer collaboratively and kind of in a no nonsense way without, you know, it's it's just a side effect of the old model that because it's all right, the lawyers, while they're not necessarily trying to extend things. Yeah. There is a there is an active incentive for them to, you know, push on things that sound like a potential for conflict or. Yeah, not create disputes where they're not there, but actually kind of, you know, if if the client's if you and only don't want any, you know, you're so amicable and you just want to get this sorted and kind of move on with life. Yeah. You don't want all those questions and the questions and like, have you thought about that? Have you thought about that around stuff that, you know, there will be a minimum a certain amount of of things that, you know, I think some lawyers call it like crystal ball gazing. So they're looking for a prenup into the future. And all of our lawyers will do that with you. They just, you know, will not push on things that might create, you know, unnecessary, unnecessary conflict and hesitation that you and all he didn't want. So I would say if there's anything that's that's a real area, a real, you know, aspect of this area of law that could, I think, be better in general. It's being better for the clients because sometimes, sometimes their interests, you know, maybe I'm going to be the homemaker for a but I'm going to be, you know, sacrificing certain things in my career. And I want that to be reflected in the agreement. Yeah, that could be important for you, but also what could be important for you as to not have a months long dispute. Yeah. And I would say that that's, that's going to cost me. It's going to cost the contributions. I would miss out. So it kind of defeats the whole point of why you're doing it. Yeah. So that's probably what I would say. in general in that. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Love it. Cool. so where can someone find agreeable? I assume that's agreeable. This. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, it's agreeable indeed. people can get in touch with us. We don't obviously don't provide legal advice straight away in terms of acting like a lawyer. But we can help you with, you know, really quite pointed legal information kind of translate some of these concepts to your situation without advising you what to do. necessarily. But we we just think that's another thing that people shouldn't really have to like. Book time with the lawyer to get basic info. There should be a kind of certain level of of reading up and asking questions that people can do just for free. So yeah, I'd encourage anybody who's who's thinking about any of any of these situations we talked about, you know, feel free to get in touch with agreeable and we'll just help you, because it's because it's a nice thing to do. So. Yeah. Nice. And, and just to clarify, it also extends beyond just like, couples. It's the full span of, relationship property agreements in terms of like date of gift and date of do you do. So we do relationship property agreements, which are the prenups and separation agreements. Then we also help people. We have. yeah. Very. So our date of date and date of gifts and wills are $89. So that's just a draft. And we'll also, you know, we'll give you a bit of help on kind of tidying it up. But if you want it to get legal advice that's kind of optional and extra certainly recommended. But we can usually arrange someone from our panel to, to give you a quote for those, and then property sharing agreements are $199. So again, that doesn't include legal advice, but it does include help without from our team to kind of sharpen it up. And then again, if you want legal advice we can kind of arrange a quote for that. Whereas the the relationship property agreements and separation agreements, they're that kind of longer process generally. So it's it's 450 for the initial agreement. You may choose to take that to your own lawyers, or you might choose to to use our online service and get a lawyer each through us. So it's kind of nice and flexible for people, which I think is a good, a good addition to the legal landscape. So yeah. Yeah, definitely sounds great. Well, thank you so much for your time and thanks for answering all my Kelly questions. No worries. Thanks so much for having me, Christine. No enjoyable chat. So. Oh, good. Good. And, thanks. everyone that's listening, we will be back next week with another episode of the podcast. If you have any questions for us, it's no secret and see it on Instagram. we're also happy to pass on any questions to, well, in the Aggarwal team. So slide into our DMs. but otherwise thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.